Party hidden prior to attack. Surprise? Advantage? Both?











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Our adroit heroes tracked the goblins back to a small camp in the woods. Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.



The party attacks! Arrows rain down, spells are cast, and sword wielders rush in. Our party...



Attacks with advantage because they are hidden?

Only gets a surprise round for catching the goblins unaware?

Both get surprise and advantage?



What are scenarios in which each of the above would occur?










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    up vote
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    favorite












    Our adroit heroes tracked the goblins back to a small camp in the woods. Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.



    The party attacks! Arrows rain down, spells are cast, and sword wielders rush in. Our party...



    Attacks with advantage because they are hidden?

    Only gets a surprise round for catching the goblins unaware?

    Both get surprise and advantage?



    What are scenarios in which each of the above would occur?










    share|improve this question


























      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite











      Our adroit heroes tracked the goblins back to a small camp in the woods. Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.



      The party attacks! Arrows rain down, spells are cast, and sword wielders rush in. Our party...



      Attacks with advantage because they are hidden?

      Only gets a surprise round for catching the goblins unaware?

      Both get surprise and advantage?



      What are scenarios in which each of the above would occur?










      share|improve this question















      Our adroit heroes tracked the goblins back to a small camp in the woods. Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.



      The party attacks! Arrows rain down, spells are cast, and sword wielders rush in. Our party...



      Attacks with advantage because they are hidden?

      Only gets a surprise round for catching the goblins unaware?

      Both get surprise and advantage?



      What are scenarios in which each of the above would occur?







      dnd-5e stealth advantage surprise






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 1 hour ago









      KorvinStarmast

      71.7k17225393




      71.7k17225393










      asked 2 hours ago









      SeeDerekEngineer

      1,0531932




      1,0531932






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          7
          down vote



          accepted










          It's all in your description:




          Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.




          You, the GM, have already determined that the goblins are completely unaware and that the adventurers are hidden. (Some GMs might have compared stealth vs. perception, some might let the fiction do the talking for them, you may have done neither; see DMG p. 237 for more on how to decide whether or not to require checks in this instance.)





          • That the goblins are completely unaware means they are surprised. From PHB p.189 at "Surprise":




            Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised.





          • That the adventurers are hidden means that they attack at advantage. From PHB p.195 at "Unseen Attackers and Targets":




            When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.




            So as you describe it your archers and (presumably-ranged casters) would have advantage. Those sword-wielders, though... they lose their advantage as they come into sight and attack (presumably while visible) the goblins in melee.








          share|improve this answer























          • But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden. For the enemy to be completely unaware the party must be hidden, no?
            – SeeDerekEngineer
            2 hours ago






          • 4




            @SeeDerekEngineer the classic surprise scenario that doesn't involve hidden attackers is when you and I can hear orcs in the next room, so we bust down the door swords-a-blazin' and attack. We got the drop on them for surprise-purposes, but they can actually see us swinging and so our attacks aren't advantaged. Another might be if we were negotiating with innocent do-gooders while intending to double-cross them the entire time. On your signal we both draw and stab--surprise! (Perhaps contingent on the result of a deception-insight contest.) But seen.
            – nitsua60
            2 hours ago












          • @SeeDerekEngineer this isn't a line of computer code in a computer game. But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden
            – KorvinStarmast
            1 hour ago











          Your Answer





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          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          7
          down vote



          accepted










          It's all in your description:




          Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.




          You, the GM, have already determined that the goblins are completely unaware and that the adventurers are hidden. (Some GMs might have compared stealth vs. perception, some might let the fiction do the talking for them, you may have done neither; see DMG p. 237 for more on how to decide whether or not to require checks in this instance.)





          • That the goblins are completely unaware means they are surprised. From PHB p.189 at "Surprise":




            Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised.





          • That the adventurers are hidden means that they attack at advantage. From PHB p.195 at "Unseen Attackers and Targets":




            When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.




            So as you describe it your archers and (presumably-ranged casters) would have advantage. Those sword-wielders, though... they lose their advantage as they come into sight and attack (presumably while visible) the goblins in melee.








          share|improve this answer























          • But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden. For the enemy to be completely unaware the party must be hidden, no?
            – SeeDerekEngineer
            2 hours ago






          • 4




            @SeeDerekEngineer the classic surprise scenario that doesn't involve hidden attackers is when you and I can hear orcs in the next room, so we bust down the door swords-a-blazin' and attack. We got the drop on them for surprise-purposes, but they can actually see us swinging and so our attacks aren't advantaged. Another might be if we were negotiating with innocent do-gooders while intending to double-cross them the entire time. On your signal we both draw and stab--surprise! (Perhaps contingent on the result of a deception-insight contest.) But seen.
            – nitsua60
            2 hours ago












          • @SeeDerekEngineer this isn't a line of computer code in a computer game. But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden
            – KorvinStarmast
            1 hour ago















          up vote
          7
          down vote



          accepted










          It's all in your description:




          Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.




          You, the GM, have already determined that the goblins are completely unaware and that the adventurers are hidden. (Some GMs might have compared stealth vs. perception, some might let the fiction do the talking for them, you may have done neither; see DMG p. 237 for more on how to decide whether or not to require checks in this instance.)





          • That the goblins are completely unaware means they are surprised. From PHB p.189 at "Surprise":




            Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised.





          • That the adventurers are hidden means that they attack at advantage. From PHB p.195 at "Unseen Attackers and Targets":




            When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.




            So as you describe it your archers and (presumably-ranged casters) would have advantage. Those sword-wielders, though... they lose their advantage as they come into sight and attack (presumably while visible) the goblins in melee.








          share|improve this answer























          • But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden. For the enemy to be completely unaware the party must be hidden, no?
            – SeeDerekEngineer
            2 hours ago






          • 4




            @SeeDerekEngineer the classic surprise scenario that doesn't involve hidden attackers is when you and I can hear orcs in the next room, so we bust down the door swords-a-blazin' and attack. We got the drop on them for surprise-purposes, but they can actually see us swinging and so our attacks aren't advantaged. Another might be if we were negotiating with innocent do-gooders while intending to double-cross them the entire time. On your signal we both draw and stab--surprise! (Perhaps contingent on the result of a deception-insight contest.) But seen.
            – nitsua60
            2 hours ago












          • @SeeDerekEngineer this isn't a line of computer code in a computer game. But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden
            – KorvinStarmast
            1 hour ago













          up vote
          7
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          7
          down vote



          accepted






          It's all in your description:




          Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.




          You, the GM, have already determined that the goblins are completely unaware and that the adventurers are hidden. (Some GMs might have compared stealth vs. perception, some might let the fiction do the talking for them, you may have done neither; see DMG p. 237 for more on how to decide whether or not to require checks in this instance.)





          • That the goblins are completely unaware means they are surprised. From PHB p.189 at "Surprise":




            Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised.





          • That the adventurers are hidden means that they attack at advantage. From PHB p.195 at "Unseen Attackers and Targets":




            When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.




            So as you describe it your archers and (presumably-ranged casters) would have advantage. Those sword-wielders, though... they lose their advantage as they come into sight and attack (presumably while visible) the goblins in melee.








          share|improve this answer














          It's all in your description:




          Completely unaware of the threat around them, the goblins sit around a fire, easy prey to the hidden band of adventurers lurking in the trees.




          You, the GM, have already determined that the goblins are completely unaware and that the adventurers are hidden. (Some GMs might have compared stealth vs. perception, some might let the fiction do the talking for them, you may have done neither; see DMG p. 237 for more on how to decide whether or not to require checks in this instance.)





          • That the goblins are completely unaware means they are surprised. From PHB p.189 at "Surprise":




            Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised.





          • That the adventurers are hidden means that they attack at advantage. From PHB p.195 at "Unseen Attackers and Targets":




            When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.




            So as you describe it your archers and (presumably-ranged casters) would have advantage. Those sword-wielders, though... they lose their advantage as they come into sight and attack (presumably while visible) the goblins in melee.









          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 2 hours ago

























          answered 2 hours ago









          nitsua60

          71.3k12293416




          71.3k12293416












          • But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden. For the enemy to be completely unaware the party must be hidden, no?
            – SeeDerekEngineer
            2 hours ago






          • 4




            @SeeDerekEngineer the classic surprise scenario that doesn't involve hidden attackers is when you and I can hear orcs in the next room, so we bust down the door swords-a-blazin' and attack. We got the drop on them for surprise-purposes, but they can actually see us swinging and so our attacks aren't advantaged. Another might be if we were negotiating with innocent do-gooders while intending to double-cross them the entire time. On your signal we both draw and stab--surprise! (Perhaps contingent on the result of a deception-insight contest.) But seen.
            – nitsua60
            2 hours ago












          • @SeeDerekEngineer this isn't a line of computer code in a computer game. But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden
            – KorvinStarmast
            1 hour ago


















          • But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden. For the enemy to be completely unaware the party must be hidden, no?
            – SeeDerekEngineer
            2 hours ago






          • 4




            @SeeDerekEngineer the classic surprise scenario that doesn't involve hidden attackers is when you and I can hear orcs in the next room, so we bust down the door swords-a-blazin' and attack. We got the drop on them for surprise-purposes, but they can actually see us swinging and so our attacks aren't advantaged. Another might be if we were negotiating with innocent do-gooders while intending to double-cross them the entire time. On your signal we both draw and stab--surprise! (Perhaps contingent on the result of a deception-insight contest.) But seen.
            – nitsua60
            2 hours ago












          • @SeeDerekEngineer this isn't a line of computer code in a computer game. But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden
            – KorvinStarmast
            1 hour ago
















          But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden. For the enemy to be completely unaware the party must be hidden, no?
          – SeeDerekEngineer
          2 hours ago




          But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden. For the enemy to be completely unaware the party must be hidden, no?
          – SeeDerekEngineer
          2 hours ago




          4




          4




          @SeeDerekEngineer the classic surprise scenario that doesn't involve hidden attackers is when you and I can hear orcs in the next room, so we bust down the door swords-a-blazin' and attack. We got the drop on them for surprise-purposes, but they can actually see us swinging and so our attacks aren't advantaged. Another might be if we were negotiating with innocent do-gooders while intending to double-cross them the entire time. On your signal we both draw and stab--surprise! (Perhaps contingent on the result of a deception-insight contest.) But seen.
          – nitsua60
          2 hours ago






          @SeeDerekEngineer the classic surprise scenario that doesn't involve hidden attackers is when you and I can hear orcs in the next room, so we bust down the door swords-a-blazin' and attack. We got the drop on them for surprise-purposes, but they can actually see us swinging and so our attacks aren't advantaged. Another might be if we were negotiating with innocent do-gooders while intending to double-cross them the entire time. On your signal we both draw and stab--surprise! (Perhaps contingent on the result of a deception-insight contest.) But seen.
          – nitsua60
          2 hours ago














          @SeeDerekEngineer this isn't a line of computer code in a computer game. But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden
          – KorvinStarmast
          1 hour ago




          @SeeDerekEngineer this isn't a line of computer code in a computer game. But wouldnt every Instance of surprise entail the party be hidden
          – KorvinStarmast
          1 hour ago


















           

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