How is pressure an intensive property?











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I've seen this question asked before but I can't find an answer to the specific point I'm troubled with. From the kinetic theory of gases, pressure results from molecules colliding with the walls of a container enclosing a gas, imparting a force upon the wall. Now, if we split the container into two halves, I am told that pressure remains the same on either side of the partition assuming the gas has uniform density throughout the container. But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?










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    I've seen this question asked before but I can't find an answer to the specific point I'm troubled with. From the kinetic theory of gases, pressure results from molecules colliding with the walls of a container enclosing a gas, imparting a force upon the wall. Now, if we split the container into two halves, I am told that pressure remains the same on either side of the partition assuming the gas has uniform density throughout the container. But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?










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      I've seen this question asked before but I can't find an answer to the specific point I'm troubled with. From the kinetic theory of gases, pressure results from molecules colliding with the walls of a container enclosing a gas, imparting a force upon the wall. Now, if we split the container into two halves, I am told that pressure remains the same on either side of the partition assuming the gas has uniform density throughout the container. But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?










      share|cite|improve this question















      I've seen this question asked before but I can't find an answer to the specific point I'm troubled with. From the kinetic theory of gases, pressure results from molecules colliding with the walls of a container enclosing a gas, imparting a force upon the wall. Now, if we split the container into two halves, I am told that pressure remains the same on either side of the partition assuming the gas has uniform density throughout the container. But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?







      fluid-dynamics pressure






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      edited 2 hours ago









      QuIcKmAtHs

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      user552217

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          If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




          You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.






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            But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




            The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.






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            • 1




              Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
              – Aaron Stevens
              2 hours ago










            • Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
              – Dale
              2 hours ago


















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            0
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            Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get



            $$P = rho_n RT$$



            or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving



            $$P = rho_N k_B T$$



            which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.



            Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.






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              3 Answers
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              If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




              You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.






              share|cite|improve this answer

























                up vote
                3
                down vote














                If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




                You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.






                share|cite|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote










                  If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




                  You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.






                  share|cite|improve this answer













                  If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




                  You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 2 hours ago









                  Aaron Stevens

                  8,46931239




                  8,46931239






















                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote














                      But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




                      The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.






                      share|cite|improve this answer

















                      • 1




                        Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
                        – Aaron Stevens
                        2 hours ago










                      • Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
                        – Dale
                        2 hours ago















                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote














                      But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




                      The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.






                      share|cite|improve this answer

















                      • 1




                        Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
                        – Aaron Stevens
                        2 hours ago










                      • Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
                        – Dale
                        2 hours ago













                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote










                      But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




                      The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.






                      share|cite|improve this answer













                      But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?




                      The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered 2 hours ago









                      Dale

                      4,4891623




                      4,4891623








                      • 1




                        Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
                        – Aaron Stevens
                        2 hours ago










                      • Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
                        – Dale
                        2 hours ago














                      • 1




                        Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
                        – Aaron Stevens
                        2 hours ago










                      • Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
                        – Dale
                        2 hours ago








                      1




                      1




                      Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
                      – Aaron Stevens
                      2 hours ago




                      Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
                      – Aaron Stevens
                      2 hours ago












                      Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
                      – Dale
                      2 hours ago




                      Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
                      – Dale
                      2 hours ago










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get



                      $$P = rho_n RT$$



                      or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving



                      $$P = rho_N k_B T$$



                      which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.



                      Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.






                      share|cite|improve this answer

























                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get



                        $$P = rho_n RT$$



                        or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving



                        $$P = rho_N k_B T$$



                        which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.



                        Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.






                        share|cite|improve this answer























                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote










                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote









                          Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get



                          $$P = rho_n RT$$



                          or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving



                          $$P = rho_N k_B T$$



                          which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.



                          Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.






                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get



                          $$P = rho_n RT$$



                          or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving



                          $$P = rho_N k_B T$$



                          which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.



                          Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.







                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          share|cite|improve this answer



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                          answered 13 mins ago









                          The_Sympathizer

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