How is pressure an intensive property?
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I've seen this question asked before but I can't find an answer to the specific point I'm troubled with. From the kinetic theory of gases, pressure results from molecules colliding with the walls of a container enclosing a gas, imparting a force upon the wall. Now, if we split the container into two halves, I am told that pressure remains the same on either side of the partition assuming the gas has uniform density throughout the container. But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
fluid-dynamics pressure
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I've seen this question asked before but I can't find an answer to the specific point I'm troubled with. From the kinetic theory of gases, pressure results from molecules colliding with the walls of a container enclosing a gas, imparting a force upon the wall. Now, if we split the container into two halves, I am told that pressure remains the same on either side of the partition assuming the gas has uniform density throughout the container. But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
fluid-dynamics pressure
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
I've seen this question asked before but I can't find an answer to the specific point I'm troubled with. From the kinetic theory of gases, pressure results from molecules colliding with the walls of a container enclosing a gas, imparting a force upon the wall. Now, if we split the container into two halves, I am told that pressure remains the same on either side of the partition assuming the gas has uniform density throughout the container. But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
fluid-dynamics pressure
I've seen this question asked before but I can't find an answer to the specific point I'm troubled with. From the kinetic theory of gases, pressure results from molecules colliding with the walls of a container enclosing a gas, imparting a force upon the wall. Now, if we split the container into two halves, I am told that pressure remains the same on either side of the partition assuming the gas has uniform density throughout the container. But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
fluid-dynamics pressure
fluid-dynamics pressure
edited 2 hours ago
QuIcKmAtHs
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asked 3 hours ago
user552217
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3 Answers
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If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.
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up vote
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But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.
1
Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
– Aaron Stevens
2 hours ago
Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
– Dale
2 hours ago
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0
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Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get
$$P = rho_n RT$$
or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving
$$P = rho_N k_B T$$
which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.
Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.
If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
You are right that if we only halved the number of particles we would have a smaller pressure. But you have also halved the volume of the container. The fewer number of particles hits the walls more frequently due to the smaller volume. In other words, the number of particles goes down, but the number of collisions per particle goes up. The two effects cancel out, leading to the same pressure as before you put in the partition.
answered 2 hours ago
Aaron Stevens
8,46931239
8,46931239
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.
1
Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
– Aaron Stevens
2 hours ago
Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
– Dale
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.
1
Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
– Aaron Stevens
2 hours ago
Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
– Dale
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.
But If we split the container into two, isn't there effectively half the number of molecules striking the wall on each side so the pressure should also be halved? Shouldnt pressure be dependent on the number of molecules?
The pressure is not dependent on the number of molecules alone. You can simply examine the ideal gas law: $PV=nRT$. If the temperature is constant then reducing both $n$ and $V$ by half leaves pressure unchanged.
answered 2 hours ago
Dale
4,4891623
4,4891623
1
Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
– Aaron Stevens
2 hours ago
Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
– Dale
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
– Aaron Stevens
2 hours ago
Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
– Dale
2 hours ago
1
1
Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
– Aaron Stevens
2 hours ago
Physical answer vs. mathematical answer. Let's see who wins :p
– Aaron Stevens
2 hours ago
Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
– Dale
2 hours ago
Usually physical does, but the mathematical one was so simple in this case.
– Dale
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get
$$P = rho_n RT$$
or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving
$$P = rho_N k_B T$$
which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.
Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get
$$P = rho_n RT$$
or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving
$$P = rho_N k_B T$$
which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.
Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get
$$P = rho_n RT$$
or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving
$$P = rho_N k_B T$$
which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.
Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.
Yet another way to think of it: if we use instead of $V$ and $n$ the molar density $rho_n = frac{n}{V}$, we get
$$P = rho_n RT$$
or at molecular level, the molecular density (also number density) $rho_N = frac{N}{V}$ giving
$$P = rho_N k_B T$$
which shows that the pressure is an intensive property, since the volume ($V$) does not appear. This $rho_n$ is itself an intensive property for the same reason ordinary mass density is an intensive property.
Thinking about this more physically, since pressure is force over area, and the force is proportional to the number of molecules hitting it which in turn is proportional to how many happen to be in proximity, then we can think about it like this: the amount of molecules that each tiny piece of surface area "sees" remains the same in each case despite that we have cut off another half of the box, and thus it feels the same force. Think about a box of (reasonably small) ordinary macroscopic balls - if I insert a (thin) partition halfway in between the balls while displacing as few as possible, does any little bit of the area of the box's surface suddenly have much more or much less crowding next to it than before? The same thing happens here.
answered 13 mins ago
The_Sympathizer
3,569923
3,569923
add a comment |
add a comment |
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