Inverse of set operations
$begingroup$
$A cup B equiv C $ then what is $A$ in terms of $B,C$?
I tried to use $Acup B equiv (A-B)cup(A cap B)cup(B-A) $ to find a similar expression for $A cap B$ but got nowhere.
From the elementary set theory that I did 40 or so years ago I don't recall any material on inverse of set theory operations i.e. union, intersection, complement, difference.
Complement is easy as it is it's own inverse $(A^C)^C=A$
not sure if inverse of difference operator is unique, for example, one can use $(A-B)cup A equiv A$ to construct one inverse of difference $ -X$.
when doing algebra, inverse operations are the first tricks to learn, but was the topic of inverse operations of set theory ever mentioned?
elementary-set-theory
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$A cup B equiv C $ then what is $A$ in terms of $B,C$?
I tried to use $Acup B equiv (A-B)cup(A cap B)cup(B-A) $ to find a similar expression for $A cap B$ but got nowhere.
From the elementary set theory that I did 40 or so years ago I don't recall any material on inverse of set theory operations i.e. union, intersection, complement, difference.
Complement is easy as it is it's own inverse $(A^C)^C=A$
not sure if inverse of difference operator is unique, for example, one can use $(A-B)cup A equiv A$ to construct one inverse of difference $ -X$.
when doing algebra, inverse operations are the first tricks to learn, but was the topic of inverse operations of set theory ever mentioned?
elementary-set-theory
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
What does $equiv$ mean in this context? Why aren't you saying they are equal?
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$A cup B equiv C $ then what is $A$ in terms of $B,C$?
I tried to use $Acup B equiv (A-B)cup(A cap B)cup(B-A) $ to find a similar expression for $A cap B$ but got nowhere.
From the elementary set theory that I did 40 or so years ago I don't recall any material on inverse of set theory operations i.e. union, intersection, complement, difference.
Complement is easy as it is it's own inverse $(A^C)^C=A$
not sure if inverse of difference operator is unique, for example, one can use $(A-B)cup A equiv A$ to construct one inverse of difference $ -X$.
when doing algebra, inverse operations are the first tricks to learn, but was the topic of inverse operations of set theory ever mentioned?
elementary-set-theory
$endgroup$
$A cup B equiv C $ then what is $A$ in terms of $B,C$?
I tried to use $Acup B equiv (A-B)cup(A cap B)cup(B-A) $ to find a similar expression for $A cap B$ but got nowhere.
From the elementary set theory that I did 40 or so years ago I don't recall any material on inverse of set theory operations i.e. union, intersection, complement, difference.
Complement is easy as it is it's own inverse $(A^C)^C=A$
not sure if inverse of difference operator is unique, for example, one can use $(A-B)cup A equiv A$ to construct one inverse of difference $ -X$.
when doing algebra, inverse operations are the first tricks to learn, but was the topic of inverse operations of set theory ever mentioned?
elementary-set-theory
elementary-set-theory
edited 4 hours ago
Arjang
asked 5 hours ago
ArjangArjang
5,59262363
5,59262363
$begingroup$
What does $equiv$ mean in this context? Why aren't you saying they are equal?
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What does $equiv$ mean in this context? Why aren't you saying they are equal?
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
What does $equiv$ mean in this context? Why aren't you saying they are equal?
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
What does $equiv$ mean in this context? Why aren't you saying they are equal?
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Inverse operators for union, intersection, or set difference are impossible in general.
Knowing $B$ and $C$ is not enough to determine what $A$ is. Consider for example
$$ ? cup {1,2} = {1,2,3} $$
Then either ${1,3}$ or ${2,3}$ would be possible solutions (and there are two more), so there's no operator that given just ${1,2}$ and ${1,2,3}$ can tell you "which of them $A$ really was".
On the other hand symmetric difference
$$ A mathbin{triangle} B = (Asetminus B)cup(Bsetminus A) $$
has an inverse operation, namely itself: $(Amathoptriangle B)mathoptriangle B = A$.
If you consider the algebra of subsets of some universe $U$ under the operations $triangle$ and $cap$, you get a Boolean ring which satisfies the usual ring properties with $triangle$ as addition and $cap$ as multiplication. The ring's $0$ is $varnothing$ and $1$ is $U$ itself.
This gives an opportunity to use more of the usual algebraic rules on sets.
And you can express the remaining set operations in this vocabulary too:
$$ A^complement = 1 mathoptriangle A qquadqquad
Acup B = Amathoptriangle B mathoptriangle(Acap B) $$
What you lose by doing things this way is the nice duality between $cup$ and $cap$ and De Morgan's laws for sets.
(The multiplication still doesn't have an inverse, but it doesn't in general rings either, such as $mathbb Z$).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nice counter example!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So if $C=Atriangle B$ then $Ctriangle B=(Atriangle B)setminus B cup Bsetminus(Atriangle B)=[(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A)setminus B ]cup [Bsetminus(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A]=(Asetminus B)cup Bsetminus(Bsetminus A) = (Asetminus B)cup (Bcap A) = A$. .... nifty!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's not possible.
Given sets $C$ and $B$ there four states of being we can describe. $x $ in or not in $C$ and $x$ in or not in $B$ and we can only define sets by some combination of those conditions. Those conditions define the following $4$ disjoint basic sets and any set we can possibly be described in terms of $A$ and $B$ will be a union of these sets.
1) ${x not in C, xnot in B} = C^c$ (as $B subset C$)
2) ${x not in C, x in B} = emptyset$ (as $B subset C$)
3) ${x in C, x not in B} = Csetminus B$.
4) ${xin C, x in B} = C cap B = B$ (as $B subset C$).
Although $A$ is disjoint from 1) and 2) and 3) $subset A$ set 4) will typically contain elements in $A$ and as well as elements not in $A$.
Hence in general we can not define $A$ solely on the conditions of whether they are or are not in $C$ or $B$.
====
FWIW
We can list all possible sets possible to describe they are
The four above:
1) and [1 and 2] $C^c$, 2)$C^ccap B = emptyset$, 3) and [2 and 3] $Csetminus B$ and 4) and [2 and 4] $B$.
[1 and 3] and [1 and 2 and 3] = $C^c cup Csetminus B = B^c$.
[1 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 4] = $C^c cup B$
[3 and 4] and [2 and 3 and 4] = $(Csetminus B )cup B = C$
[1 and 3 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 3 and 4] = Universal set.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
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active
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votes
$begingroup$
Inverse operators for union, intersection, or set difference are impossible in general.
Knowing $B$ and $C$ is not enough to determine what $A$ is. Consider for example
$$ ? cup {1,2} = {1,2,3} $$
Then either ${1,3}$ or ${2,3}$ would be possible solutions (and there are two more), so there's no operator that given just ${1,2}$ and ${1,2,3}$ can tell you "which of them $A$ really was".
On the other hand symmetric difference
$$ A mathbin{triangle} B = (Asetminus B)cup(Bsetminus A) $$
has an inverse operation, namely itself: $(Amathoptriangle B)mathoptriangle B = A$.
If you consider the algebra of subsets of some universe $U$ under the operations $triangle$ and $cap$, you get a Boolean ring which satisfies the usual ring properties with $triangle$ as addition and $cap$ as multiplication. The ring's $0$ is $varnothing$ and $1$ is $U$ itself.
This gives an opportunity to use more of the usual algebraic rules on sets.
And you can express the remaining set operations in this vocabulary too:
$$ A^complement = 1 mathoptriangle A qquadqquad
Acup B = Amathoptriangle B mathoptriangle(Acap B) $$
What you lose by doing things this way is the nice duality between $cup$ and $cap$ and De Morgan's laws for sets.
(The multiplication still doesn't have an inverse, but it doesn't in general rings either, such as $mathbb Z$).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nice counter example!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So if $C=Atriangle B$ then $Ctriangle B=(Atriangle B)setminus B cup Bsetminus(Atriangle B)=[(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A)setminus B ]cup [Bsetminus(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A]=(Asetminus B)cup Bsetminus(Bsetminus A) = (Asetminus B)cup (Bcap A) = A$. .... nifty!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Inverse operators for union, intersection, or set difference are impossible in general.
Knowing $B$ and $C$ is not enough to determine what $A$ is. Consider for example
$$ ? cup {1,2} = {1,2,3} $$
Then either ${1,3}$ or ${2,3}$ would be possible solutions (and there are two more), so there's no operator that given just ${1,2}$ and ${1,2,3}$ can tell you "which of them $A$ really was".
On the other hand symmetric difference
$$ A mathbin{triangle} B = (Asetminus B)cup(Bsetminus A) $$
has an inverse operation, namely itself: $(Amathoptriangle B)mathoptriangle B = A$.
If you consider the algebra of subsets of some universe $U$ under the operations $triangle$ and $cap$, you get a Boolean ring which satisfies the usual ring properties with $triangle$ as addition and $cap$ as multiplication. The ring's $0$ is $varnothing$ and $1$ is $U$ itself.
This gives an opportunity to use more of the usual algebraic rules on sets.
And you can express the remaining set operations in this vocabulary too:
$$ A^complement = 1 mathoptriangle A qquadqquad
Acup B = Amathoptriangle B mathoptriangle(Acap B) $$
What you lose by doing things this way is the nice duality between $cup$ and $cap$ and De Morgan's laws for sets.
(The multiplication still doesn't have an inverse, but it doesn't in general rings either, such as $mathbb Z$).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nice counter example!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So if $C=Atriangle B$ then $Ctriangle B=(Atriangle B)setminus B cup Bsetminus(Atriangle B)=[(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A)setminus B ]cup [Bsetminus(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A]=(Asetminus B)cup Bsetminus(Bsetminus A) = (Asetminus B)cup (Bcap A) = A$. .... nifty!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Inverse operators for union, intersection, or set difference are impossible in general.
Knowing $B$ and $C$ is not enough to determine what $A$ is. Consider for example
$$ ? cup {1,2} = {1,2,3} $$
Then either ${1,3}$ or ${2,3}$ would be possible solutions (and there are two more), so there's no operator that given just ${1,2}$ and ${1,2,3}$ can tell you "which of them $A$ really was".
On the other hand symmetric difference
$$ A mathbin{triangle} B = (Asetminus B)cup(Bsetminus A) $$
has an inverse operation, namely itself: $(Amathoptriangle B)mathoptriangle B = A$.
If you consider the algebra of subsets of some universe $U$ under the operations $triangle$ and $cap$, you get a Boolean ring which satisfies the usual ring properties with $triangle$ as addition and $cap$ as multiplication. The ring's $0$ is $varnothing$ and $1$ is $U$ itself.
This gives an opportunity to use more of the usual algebraic rules on sets.
And you can express the remaining set operations in this vocabulary too:
$$ A^complement = 1 mathoptriangle A qquadqquad
Acup B = Amathoptriangle B mathoptriangle(Acap B) $$
What you lose by doing things this way is the nice duality between $cup$ and $cap$ and De Morgan's laws for sets.
(The multiplication still doesn't have an inverse, but it doesn't in general rings either, such as $mathbb Z$).
$endgroup$
Inverse operators for union, intersection, or set difference are impossible in general.
Knowing $B$ and $C$ is not enough to determine what $A$ is. Consider for example
$$ ? cup {1,2} = {1,2,3} $$
Then either ${1,3}$ or ${2,3}$ would be possible solutions (and there are two more), so there's no operator that given just ${1,2}$ and ${1,2,3}$ can tell you "which of them $A$ really was".
On the other hand symmetric difference
$$ A mathbin{triangle} B = (Asetminus B)cup(Bsetminus A) $$
has an inverse operation, namely itself: $(Amathoptriangle B)mathoptriangle B = A$.
If you consider the algebra of subsets of some universe $U$ under the operations $triangle$ and $cap$, you get a Boolean ring which satisfies the usual ring properties with $triangle$ as addition and $cap$ as multiplication. The ring's $0$ is $varnothing$ and $1$ is $U$ itself.
This gives an opportunity to use more of the usual algebraic rules on sets.
And you can express the remaining set operations in this vocabulary too:
$$ A^complement = 1 mathoptriangle A qquadqquad
Acup B = Amathoptriangle B mathoptriangle(Acap B) $$
What you lose by doing things this way is the nice duality between $cup$ and $cap$ and De Morgan's laws for sets.
(The multiplication still doesn't have an inverse, but it doesn't in general rings either, such as $mathbb Z$).
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
239k17304541
239k17304541
$begingroup$
Nice counter example!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So if $C=Atriangle B$ then $Ctriangle B=(Atriangle B)setminus B cup Bsetminus(Atriangle B)=[(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A)setminus B ]cup [Bsetminus(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A]=(Asetminus B)cup Bsetminus(Bsetminus A) = (Asetminus B)cup (Bcap A) = A$. .... nifty!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Nice counter example!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So if $C=Atriangle B$ then $Ctriangle B=(Atriangle B)setminus B cup Bsetminus(Atriangle B)=[(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A)setminus B ]cup [Bsetminus(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A]=(Asetminus B)cup Bsetminus(Bsetminus A) = (Asetminus B)cup (Bcap A) = A$. .... nifty!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nice counter example!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nice counter example!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So if $C=Atriangle B$ then $Ctriangle B=(Atriangle B)setminus B cup Bsetminus(Atriangle B)=[(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A)setminus B ]cup [Bsetminus(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A]=(Asetminus B)cup Bsetminus(Bsetminus A) = (Asetminus B)cup (Bcap A) = A$. .... nifty!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So if $C=Atriangle B$ then $Ctriangle B=(Atriangle B)setminus B cup Bsetminus(Atriangle B)=[(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A)setminus B ]cup [Bsetminus(Asetminus B cup Bsetminus A]=(Asetminus B)cup Bsetminus(Bsetminus A) = (Asetminus B)cup (Bcap A) = A$. .... nifty!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's not possible.
Given sets $C$ and $B$ there four states of being we can describe. $x $ in or not in $C$ and $x$ in or not in $B$ and we can only define sets by some combination of those conditions. Those conditions define the following $4$ disjoint basic sets and any set we can possibly be described in terms of $A$ and $B$ will be a union of these sets.
1) ${x not in C, xnot in B} = C^c$ (as $B subset C$)
2) ${x not in C, x in B} = emptyset$ (as $B subset C$)
3) ${x in C, x not in B} = Csetminus B$.
4) ${xin C, x in B} = C cap B = B$ (as $B subset C$).
Although $A$ is disjoint from 1) and 2) and 3) $subset A$ set 4) will typically contain elements in $A$ and as well as elements not in $A$.
Hence in general we can not define $A$ solely on the conditions of whether they are or are not in $C$ or $B$.
====
FWIW
We can list all possible sets possible to describe they are
The four above:
1) and [1 and 2] $C^c$, 2)$C^ccap B = emptyset$, 3) and [2 and 3] $Csetminus B$ and 4) and [2 and 4] $B$.
[1 and 3] and [1 and 2 and 3] = $C^c cup Csetminus B = B^c$.
[1 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 4] = $C^c cup B$
[3 and 4] and [2 and 3 and 4] = $(Csetminus B )cup B = C$
[1 and 3 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 3 and 4] = Universal set.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's not possible.
Given sets $C$ and $B$ there four states of being we can describe. $x $ in or not in $C$ and $x$ in or not in $B$ and we can only define sets by some combination of those conditions. Those conditions define the following $4$ disjoint basic sets and any set we can possibly be described in terms of $A$ and $B$ will be a union of these sets.
1) ${x not in C, xnot in B} = C^c$ (as $B subset C$)
2) ${x not in C, x in B} = emptyset$ (as $B subset C$)
3) ${x in C, x not in B} = Csetminus B$.
4) ${xin C, x in B} = C cap B = B$ (as $B subset C$).
Although $A$ is disjoint from 1) and 2) and 3) $subset A$ set 4) will typically contain elements in $A$ and as well as elements not in $A$.
Hence in general we can not define $A$ solely on the conditions of whether they are or are not in $C$ or $B$.
====
FWIW
We can list all possible sets possible to describe they are
The four above:
1) and [1 and 2] $C^c$, 2)$C^ccap B = emptyset$, 3) and [2 and 3] $Csetminus B$ and 4) and [2 and 4] $B$.
[1 and 3] and [1 and 2 and 3] = $C^c cup Csetminus B = B^c$.
[1 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 4] = $C^c cup B$
[3 and 4] and [2 and 3 and 4] = $(Csetminus B )cup B = C$
[1 and 3 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 3 and 4] = Universal set.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's not possible.
Given sets $C$ and $B$ there four states of being we can describe. $x $ in or not in $C$ and $x$ in or not in $B$ and we can only define sets by some combination of those conditions. Those conditions define the following $4$ disjoint basic sets and any set we can possibly be described in terms of $A$ and $B$ will be a union of these sets.
1) ${x not in C, xnot in B} = C^c$ (as $B subset C$)
2) ${x not in C, x in B} = emptyset$ (as $B subset C$)
3) ${x in C, x not in B} = Csetminus B$.
4) ${xin C, x in B} = C cap B = B$ (as $B subset C$).
Although $A$ is disjoint from 1) and 2) and 3) $subset A$ set 4) will typically contain elements in $A$ and as well as elements not in $A$.
Hence in general we can not define $A$ solely on the conditions of whether they are or are not in $C$ or $B$.
====
FWIW
We can list all possible sets possible to describe they are
The four above:
1) and [1 and 2] $C^c$, 2)$C^ccap B = emptyset$, 3) and [2 and 3] $Csetminus B$ and 4) and [2 and 4] $B$.
[1 and 3] and [1 and 2 and 3] = $C^c cup Csetminus B = B^c$.
[1 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 4] = $C^c cup B$
[3 and 4] and [2 and 3 and 4] = $(Csetminus B )cup B = C$
[1 and 3 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 3 and 4] = Universal set.
$endgroup$
It's not possible.
Given sets $C$ and $B$ there four states of being we can describe. $x $ in or not in $C$ and $x$ in or not in $B$ and we can only define sets by some combination of those conditions. Those conditions define the following $4$ disjoint basic sets and any set we can possibly be described in terms of $A$ and $B$ will be a union of these sets.
1) ${x not in C, xnot in B} = C^c$ (as $B subset C$)
2) ${x not in C, x in B} = emptyset$ (as $B subset C$)
3) ${x in C, x not in B} = Csetminus B$.
4) ${xin C, x in B} = C cap B = B$ (as $B subset C$).
Although $A$ is disjoint from 1) and 2) and 3) $subset A$ set 4) will typically contain elements in $A$ and as well as elements not in $A$.
Hence in general we can not define $A$ solely on the conditions of whether they are or are not in $C$ or $B$.
====
FWIW
We can list all possible sets possible to describe they are
The four above:
1) and [1 and 2] $C^c$, 2)$C^ccap B = emptyset$, 3) and [2 and 3] $Csetminus B$ and 4) and [2 and 4] $B$.
[1 and 3] and [1 and 2 and 3] = $C^c cup Csetminus B = B^c$.
[1 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 4] = $C^c cup B$
[3 and 4] and [2 and 3 and 4] = $(Csetminus B )cup B = C$
[1 and 3 and 4] and [1 and 2 and 3 and 4] = Universal set.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
fleabloodfleablood
69.1k22685
69.1k22685
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
What does $equiv$ mean in this context? Why aren't you saying they are equal?
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 hours ago